Down with the British! Liberty or death!

[Just Some Girl]

We celebrated my bday on the 4th. Woke up to steak and eggs. We were going to swim with the little guy but it was raining, so we went to Oberweis Dairy for ice cream. Then Tilda made me a cake. (She makes yellow cake the night before, brushes it with simple syrup, then lets it chill overnight. Then she makes her own icing and loads it with diced strawberries and blueberries and puts it all together. Pretty awesome, really.) My folks gave me a bunch of tools (this is how my dad and I bond.) My brother Andy gave me a beautifully bound set of tiny volumes collecting the works of Shakespeare. My brother Jonathan gave me a gift card. (Though I shamed him when I said "I'm just glad it wasn't an IOU... If it was, I was gonna have to return it, since I got that from you last year.")

Yesterday, we went to the pool with the kid and to Harbor Freight, the tool store I go on and on about. (I got a torque wrench!) My folks and brothers (and baby brother's fiance) were here, so it was fun.

Ah, nice! I think you did mention the 4th as celebration day, but...I forget things. Anyway, sounds swelltastic.

I also like getting tools.*





*code/not code.

[Bizarro]

Here are the answers to all of the ones I can remember them asking me in the baseball category:

(I needed three tries but looked up the few I missed)

David Ortiz 2005 RBI total: 148
1969 Mets 25 game winner: Tom Seaver
Played all 9 positions in a game and pitched to his cousin: Bert Campaneris
Broke Maris's single-season HR record with 70: Mark McGwire
Passed Willie Mays with 661 HR in 2004: Barry Bonds
Distance between bases: 90 feet
Only category Davey Lopes ever led league in: Stolen Bases
1995 Cy Young Winner: Greg Maddux
Park that has the green monster: Fenway
baseball team whose name is not also an animal: Minnesota
city where Baseball Halll of Fame is located: Cooperstown, NY
which of these four players hit the most HR in 2005: Miguel Cabrera
85 Yankee with 35 HR, 145 RBI: Don Mattingly
Which of these years did the Mets win the pennant? 1986
2005 White Sox postseason record: 11-1

[Just Some Girl]

Thanks, will play again later.


Gawd, I can't believe the racing ones are all fucking NASCAR. Alright, out for a smoke then Daily Show/Colbert. Happy 2 hours and 8 remaining minutes of your b-day!!

smooches!

[Doctor Rock]

I think that there's nothing wrong with "organised atheism", if it's done, for instance, to insure that the separation of church and state is maintained, and stuff of that order. 

Ding ding ding!

And the point I was trying to make earlier (and doing a poor job by) was that there is still a great deal of discrimination against and discomfort towards atheists in our society. And the one and only way I can think of to combat that is for atheists to organize when they are discriminated against or when religion oversteps its bounds.

I don't think that organized atheists are any more analogous to a church than the NAACP is analogous to the Klan. Organizing around polar opposite viewpoints on an issue need not make groups parallel. I think organized atheist groups are very much like anti-prejudice groups in that their long term goal is to be unnecessary--and that's as far from a religion as I can imagine.

And even if there were atheists going around organizing into a church of atheism or whatever... Well, the point is that atheists are not worse than believers, which means some can be about as hypocritical. 

[Doctor Rock]

Here are the answers to all of the ones I can remember them asking me in the baseball category:

(I needed three tries but looked up the few I missed)

David Ortiz 2005 RBI total: 148
1969 Mets 25 game winner: Tom Seaver
Played all 9 positions in a game and pitched to his cousin: Bert Campaneris
Broke Maris's single-season HR record with 70: Mark McGwire
Passed Willie Mays with 661 HR in 2004: Barry Bonds
Distance between bases: 90 feet
Only category Davey Lopes ever led league in: Stolen Bases
1995 Cy Young Winner: Greg Maddux
Park that has the green monster: Fenway
baseball team whose name is not also an animal: Minnesota
city where Baseball Halll of Fame is located: Cooperstown, NY
which of these four players hit the most HR in 2005: Miguel Cabrera
85 Yankee with 35 HR, 145 RBI: Don Mattingly
Which of these years did the Mets win the pennant? 1986
2005 White Sox postseason record: 11-1

The questions change.  And it's too much work to see some net bunny nude. 

[bebopbalogna]

I think that there's nothing wrong with "organised atheism", if it's done, for instance, to insure that the separation of church and state is maintained, and stuff of that order. 

Ding ding ding!

And the point I was trying to make earlier (and doing a poor job by) was that there is still a great deal of discrimination against and discomfort towards atheists in our society. And the one and only way I can think of to combat that is for atheists to organize when they are discriminated against or when religion oversteps its bounds.

I don't think that organized atheists are any more analogous to a church than the NAACP is analogous to the Klan. Organizing around polar opposite viewpoints on an issue need not make groups parallel. I think organized atheist groups are very much like anti-prejudice groups in that their long term goal is to be unnecessary--and that's as far from a religion as I can imagine.

just a couple of points...then i'll lay this to rest..

first, i want to disagree with dan's definition of atheism, "the absence of belief".  i think that's a better definition for agnosticism, which is akin to skepticism, or need for proof, without actual denial.   "atheism"  is actually a strict BELIEF that there is no god.    second, to be clear... i have no problem with atheists, agnostics, spaghetti monsterists, christians, buddhists, muslims, satanists, etc.   (well, actually, satanism kinda bugs me, simply because if you believe in satan- something that only exists because the bible says so- then you are acknowledging the bible.  and in doing so, acknowledging that by being a satanist, you are gladly condemning yourself to eternal hellfire.  and that's just silly.)  anyways, you get the point.  someone's personal beliefs, or lack thereof, are none of my business. and as long as they do not seek to infringe upon my business, or anyone else's, they are fine with me. i don't think faith, as a concept, has ever hurt anybody. a code of ethics that one follows to keep a clear conscience is similarly not inherently a bad idea.  probably a good one.  religion however, esp.  an organized version with a particular agenda, no matter how well intentioned, inevitably becomes zealous, dogmatic, and aggressive.  particularly when you have those who dedicate their entire existence to it.  and that's what seems to be the case with these atheist groups.  now let's look at the definition of "religion".

re⋅li⋅gion
  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
Use religion in a Sentence
–noun
1.    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.    a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.    the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.    the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.    the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.    something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


no mention of god anywhere.  buddhists do not acknowledge a deity. more that "collective consciousness" that tripp was eluding to.  religion can be anything... politics, science, whatever.  all can be a religion to some.  that last definition is exactly what i'm talking about, and directly contradicts jeff's last sentence:

I think organized atheist groups are very much like anti-prejudice groups in that their long term goal is to be unnecessary--and that's as far from a religion as I can imagine.

now, compare that to the definition of atheism:


a⋅the⋅ism
  /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
Use atheism in a Sentence
–noun
1.    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism


DOCTRINE.  BELIEF.   in other words,  a religion.    now, what is the agenda?  on the surface, it seems "to insure that the separation of church and state is maintained" and to strip the religious right of any monopoly on morality.   i have no problem with that, and as said before, completely agree with and support those goals.  but to organize as atheists implies that people of a defined faith, as a rule, do not agree with that principle. which is simply not true. there are plenty people of various faiths that would fight for those principles alongside the most "militant atheists" out there.  the deists who wrote the damn constitution among them. why exclude anyone?  because that is not their real agenda.  for example, these same groups have waged campaigns in the name of "separation of church and state" that would keep some 8 year old girl from being allowed to bow her head quietly before a test or before lunch at school. i'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.  while i agree that there should never be school sanctioned prayer,you can't ban someone from praying.  they are offended by other people's religion and want to rid the world of it.  they want to  eventually make people who believe in god feel as guilty of something as those who don't have been made to feel for centuries.   it's a sort of payback scheme.   separation of church and state works both ways......religion should never dictate policy, legislation, etc.  but at the same time,  policy and legislation should not dictate what someone is allowed to believe or practice.  and unfortunately, that seems to be the eventual goal, not simply becoming unnecessary.  even if you intend to eventually do so, it's not realistic.  not for the NAACP, not the American Cancer Society, and not these atheist groups.  as any of these organizations get closer and closer to their stated goals,  they will all become more and more counter-productive to their original intent in an effort to remain relevant. 




by the way, i wouldn't have any problem with the damn bus sign if they had left the "www. nyc-atheists. org" part off of it.  similarly, i wouldn't have a problem with "always  treat others like you want to be treated" being painted on the side of a bus.  unless of course it was followed by a bible verse number and an ad for a church.  that's a public transportation vehicle.  paid for by taxes.  keep your fucking religion off of it.

[bebopbalogna]

Here are the answers to all of the ones I can remember them asking me in the baseball category:

(I needed three tries but looked up the few I missed)

David Ortiz 2005 RBI total: 148
1969 Mets 25 game winner: Tom Seaver
Played all 9 positions in a game and pitched to his cousin: Bert Campaneris
Broke Maris's single-season HR record with 70: Mark McGwire
Passed Willie Mays with 661 HR in 2004: Barry Bonds
Distance between bases: 90 feet
Only category Davey Lopes ever led league in: Stolen Bases
1995 Cy Young Winner: Greg Maddux
Park that has the green monster: Fenway
baseball team whose name is not also an animal: Minnesota
city where Baseball Halll of Fame is located: Cooperstown, NY
which of these four players hit the most HR in 2005: Miguel Cabrera
85 Yankee with 35 HR, 145 RBI: Don Mattingly
Which of these years did the Mets win the pennant? 1986
2005 White Sox postseason record: 11-1

The questions change.  And it's too much work to see some net bunny nude. 

completely agree.

if the goal of answering the questions correctly is to see a naked chick,  the answer to every question should be "www. (your favorite porn site here) .com.    enter."

[Bizarro]

first, i want to disagree with dan's definition of atheism, "the absence of belief".  i think that's a better definition for agnosticism, which is akin to skepticism, or need for proof, without actual denial.   "atheism"  is actually a strict BELIEF that there is no god.

I don't find it any more helpful in describing myself to say that I don't believe in God than to say I don't "believe" in leprechauns. When we use the word "believe" in terms of faith, we're using it to describe believing in something that we have to make a leap beyond logic and/or knowledge to believe in. The entire point of being a skeptic is refusing to take such leaps. We work from available evidence.

The difference between an an atheist and an agnostic is often described as atheists being too "arrogant" to admit the possibility of a God, whereas agnostics are "willing to admit they don't know." The fact is, agnostics are just chickenshit atheists--not because they're afraid of "God" (I doubt that) but because they're afraid of pissing off their neighbors. In the strictest possible sense, atheists can all be called agnostics, in that, if God somehow showed himself, we wouldn't argue the point, but would just take it as new, better evidence. What you have to realize is, we feel that way about everything. If it were proven tomorrow that invisible leprechauns pushing everything downward caused gravity, we'd have to roll with that, too. That said, I wouldn't be willing to go around every day "conceding the possibility" of invisible leprechauns any more than I'm going to call myself "agnostic." Each avenue strikes me as highly unlikely.

someone's personal beliefs, or lack thereof, are none of my business. and as long as they do not seek to infringe upon my business, or anyone else's, they are fine with me.

That's the thing: they do. Religious people regularly shove their beliefs down atheists' throats. They force us to sit through school prayers at public school graduations and football games, they keep our kids out of Boy Scouts. They make asinine public pronouncements about how immoral and untrustworthy we are. Much worse than any of that, they take advantage of the fact that atheists are generally an unorganized lot scattered to the winds to keep us marginalized. You think someone could get elected governor if he said he ddn;t believe in God?

i don't think faith, as a concept, has ever hurt anybody.

Just off the top of my head, two words: Christian Science.
http://www.watchman.org/cults/chrdeath.htm

And this is actually one I could go all day on.

You're playing fast and loose on those definitions, Pat. You're using the definition of "religion" intended to describe non-theological devotion (i.e., "He religiously follows the Red Sox.")

And in any case, it's not like we'd describe your religion at all times as "Non-Leprechaun-tarian." Religions aren't decided on based on what you don't believe in, but rather on what you do.

for example, these same groups have waged campaigns in the name of "separation of church and state" that would keep some 8 year old girl from being allowed to bow her head quietly before a test or before lunch at school.

Cite one such campaign. That's propaganda from right-wing Christian groups fighting to preserve prayer in school. The fact is, the campaigns against prayer in school have not been about individual prayer, but about prayer being set as part of group functions or being sponsored by school funds. I don't give a shit either way if Sally wants to pray before she eats her sandwich with the crusts cut off at lunch. But if the school is going to lead a formal prayer before the football game, we have a problem. Or if they're going to devote school funds and pubic tax dollars to some "gather round the flagpole" prayer meeting of born-agains, we have a problem.

i'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.  while i agree that there should never be school sanctioned prayer,you can't ban someone from praying.

I don't know an atheist who feels otherwise.

they are offended by other people's religion and want to rid the world of it.  they want to  eventually make people who believe in god feel as guilty of something as those who don't have been made to feel for centuries.   it's a sort of payback scheme.

First of all, I don't know many atheists over the age of 25 who actually try and convert anyone. The attacking people's belief line by line thing is mostly a freshman year of college/drunk twentysomething at a party exercise.

That said, why is it that when Christians (just to pick the noisiest group of theists) ask people if they've accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, they're reaching out because of love, but if an atheist points out the lack of evidence (not even necessarily something he/she believes but simply science as we understand it), they are attacking someone's beliefs. I think the real issue is that many religious people are threatened by atheists--not because we are actually to out to get them, but just because their own beliefs sit a lot better if not too closely examined by any real logical or scientific scrutiny.

that seems to be the eventual goal, not simply becoming unnecessary.  even if you intend to eventually do so, it's not realistic.  not for the NAACP, not the American Cancer Society, and not these atheist groups.  as any of these organizations get closer and closer to their stated goals,  they will all become more and more counter-productive to their original intent in an effort to remain relevant.

If say, racism ever goes away and the NAACP is still around, I will concede the possibility that groups that fight to become irrelevant hang on past that point. As far as disease goes, I will point out that the groups that raised funds to eliminate small pox and polio are long gone.

by the way, i wouldn't have any problem with the damn bus sign if they had left the "www. nyc-atheists. org" part off of it.  similarly, i wouldn't have a problem with "always  treat others like you want to be treated" being painted on the side of a bus.  unless of course it was followed by a bible verse number and an ad for a church.  that's a public transportation vehicle.  paid for by taxes.  keep your fucking religion off of it.

But the ads are private. And restricting access to those ads by religious groups or atheist groups is discriminatory. That's why churches are allowed to advertise on them all the time.

(atheist is shocked to find he has more tolerant policies towards public advertising)

As a final thought, consider what you would think of someone who said they were okay with homosexuals but didn't understand why they had to go around telling everyone they were gay, or kept congregating and forming annoying gay rights groups, and they were uncomfortable with the thought that they were trying to turn everyone gay.

[Just Some Girl]

The questions change.  And it's too much work to see some net bunny nude. 

completely agree.

if the goal of answering the questions correctly is to see a naked chick,  the answer to every question should be "www. (your favorite porn site here) .com.    enter."

I think the goal was just to do something goofy and fun.

I'll let you get back to debating the definition of religious belief/non-belief now.

[bebopbalogna]

i was just being funny. i played, had fun. and almost got the football girl naked. once i figured out i couldn't......straight to youporn.com


and no more religious/non-religious debate from me on the main thread. 

[Bizarro]

Me either. We should make an isle for this later, though.

[Just Some Girl]

I'm not saying you have to stop. Just attempting to inject some levity for y'all exploded Dan.

[Just Some Girl]

Ok, off to work now. Bah.

[Poop Fresh-Herbed Pickles]

I got the basketball girl naked in 2 tries.  She's the hottest one.