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Crappity  |  Casa de Crappity  |  Main Room  |  Where the Old Topics Live  |  2008  |  July 2008  |  Topic: czech it out « previous next »
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Author Topic: czech it out  (Read 4822 times)
bebopbalogna
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« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2008, 08:29:17 AM »

Short version: yes, McCain is a hotheaded loon who likes to play G.I. Joe with other people's lives. No, this does not mean that he can just make wars happen, though he can definitely take individual actions which lead in that direction. Even if he desires war, you can be sure that he will only fight one he is sure they can win. This means that only the most limited options are available to him re: Iran.


the war powers act (along with the patriot act, etc.) pretty much make this moot.




TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 33 > § 1541

§ 1541. Purpose and policy

(a) Congressional declaration
It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
(b) Congressional legislative power under necessary and proper clause
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer hereof.
(c) Presidential executive power as Commander-in-Chief; limitation
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to
(1) a declaration of war,
(2) specific statutory authorization, or
(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.


(is this not EXACTLY what mccain and others have been claiming has been happening in iraq? SPECIFICALLY to give themselves the right to attack iran without congressional approval? which, by the way, IT ALREADY HAS)


i'm just sayin. i wouldn't underestimate a belligerent president's thirst for blood and it's ability to override any common sense. if the past 7 years aren't enough evidence of that, then i don't know what else to say.
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matthew
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« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2008, 09:54:50 AM »

the war powers act (along with the patriot act, etc.) pretty much make this moot.

Yes, but I do not know that we wish to jump directly to worst case Alex Jones level hysteria. There is no doubt he could finagle himself into a position where he could 'accidentally set off' a war (ex. using the Bush Plan and what I call the Straits of Hormuz Incident), but even this would likely be limited to some sort of bombing campaign. 

Quote
(is this not EXACTLY what mccain and others have been claiming has been happening in iraq? SPECIFICALLY to give themselves the right to attack iran without congressional approval?

They have been trying and failing miserably. The unfortunate reality for them is that the US and Iran are currently behind the same horse. PM al-Maliki's Dawa Party was once dominated by Muqtada al-Sadr's father and the group, a regular target of Saddam Hussein, moved to Tehran during the Iran-Iraq War where the US backed Hussein. Hussein was actually hanged for his reprisals following a coup attempt carried out by Iran-friendly Dawa Party members of Dujail. The entire "Iran is interfering in Iraq" bit is an act, as Iran is merely competing for influence in the country, not an alien force attacking from without.

Quote
which, by the way, IT ALREADY HAS)

I am well aware, as this is what I was speaking of. Like Iraq, which required widespread support from Congress ("77 House Democrats and 92 House Republicans").

Quote
i'm just sayin. i wouldn't underestimate a belligerent president's thirst for blood and it's ability to override any common sense. if the past 7 years aren't enough evidence of that, then i don't know what else to say.

You make it sound as if they "fucked up", when the fact of the matter is they were highly successful in what they chose to do. Is Iraq messier than they hoped? Perhaps, but the mess is acceptable to them given the benefits. They have also learned once again that there are no consequences for their actions, no matter how appalling and criminal. Most of the Democrats cozy up to them like collaborators and only lean on them hard enough that they might snatch a seat from them here or there. Other than that Washington tends to work on a "I won't claw your back if you don't claw mine" basis.

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bebopbalogna
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« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2008, 01:05:56 PM »


You make it sound as if they "fucked up"

not my intention...



They have also learned once again that there are no consequences for their actions, no matter how appalling and criminal.

THAT is what i'm sayin.   and i believe that obama has a much greater conscience in this regard than mccain, and won't be NEAR as hawkish.  that and the supreme court justices that he would appoint (as more than one are likely to retire within the next 4-8 years-  mccain has already said that alito and roberts are the exact type of justices he wants.  SCARY how the balance would be tipped in that scenario) are the main reasons to support obama at this point, knowing full well it's down to two.   the end.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:06:19 PM by bebopbalogna » Logged

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matthew
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« Reply #183 on: July 15, 2008, 02:10:42 PM »

I hope it is clear that I am not claiming that McCain is in any way desirable or even inherently similar to Obama. My point was that McCain will be limited to the constraints of the status quo just as Obama would be.

Also, you do not have to be hawkish to greenlight Israeli military action - I cannot think of a single President who has not since the 1967 war.
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i must have been bit by a spider, when i was very small. because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going up the fucking wall. i must have been fenced-in to a long straight road when i was nine or ten because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going around the fucking bend...
matthew
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« Reply #184 on: July 15, 2008, 02:12:57 PM »

Won't we be surprised when Obama follows his inauguration with the immediate nuking of Tehran in order to quell feats that he is a Covert Muslim.
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i must have been bit by a spider, when i was very small. because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going up the fucking wall. i must have been fenced-in to a long straight road when i was nine or ten because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going around the fucking bend...
bebopbalogna
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« Reply #185 on: July 15, 2008, 03:05:44 PM »


Also, you do not have to be hawkish to greenlight Israeli military action - I cannot think of a single President who has not since the 1967 war.

carter has finally gotten a grasp on it.  thirty years too late.
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matthew
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« Reply #186 on: July 15, 2008, 08:10:44 PM »

Does amber follow or lead green?

**************************


From The Sunday Times
July 13, 2008
President George W Bush backs Israeli plan for strike on Iran
As Tehran tests new missiles, America believes only a show of force can deter President Ahmadinejad


President George W Bush: US officials acknowledge that no American president can afford to remain idle if Israel is threatened
Uzi Mahnaimi in Washington

President George W Bush has told the Israeli government that he may be prepared to approve a future military strike on Iranian nuclear facilities if negotiations with Tehran break down, according to a senior Pentagon official.

Despite the opposition of his own generals and widespread scepticism that America is ready to risk the military, political and economic consequences of an airborne strike on Iran, the president has given an “amber light” to an Israeli plan to attack Iran’s main nuclear sites with long-range bombing sorties, the official told The Sunday Times.

“Amber means get on with your preparations, stand by for immediate attack and tell us when you’re ready,” the official said. But the Israelis have also been told that they can expect no help from American forces and will not be able to use US military bases in Iraq for logistical support.

Nor is it certain that Bush’s amber light would ever turn to green without irrefutable evidence of lethal Iranian hostility. Tehran’s test launches of medium-range ballistic missiles last week were seen in Washington as provocative and poorly judged, but both the Pentagon and the CIA concluded that they did not represent an immediate threat of attack against Israeli or US targets.

“It’s really all down to the Israelis,” the Pentagon official added. “This administration will not attack Iran. This has already been decided. But the president is really preoccupied with the nuclear threat against Israel and I know he doesn’t believe that anything but force will deter Iran.”

The official added that Israel had not so far presented Bush with a convincing military proposal. “If there is no solid plan, the amber will never turn to green,” he said.

There was also resistance inside the Pentagon from officers concerned about Iranian retaliation. “The uniform people are opposed to the attack plans, mainly because they think it will endanger our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan,” the source said.

Complicating the calculations in both Washington and Tel Aviv is the prospect of an incoming Democratic president who has already made it clear that he prefers negotiation to the use of force.

Senator Barack Obama’s previous opposition to the war in Iraq, and his apparent doubts about the urgency of the Iranian threat, have intensified pressure on the Israeli hawks to act before November’s US presidential election. “If I were an Israeli I wouldn’t wait,” the Pentagon official added.

The latest round of regional tension was sparked by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, which fired nine long and medium-range missiles in war game manoeuvres in the Gulf last Wednesday.

Iran’s state-run media reported that one of them was a modified Shahab-3 ballistic missile, which has a claimed range of 1,250 miles and could theoretically deliver a one-ton nuclear warhead over Israeli cities. Tel Aviv is about 650 miles from western Iran. General Hossein Salami, a senior Revolutionary Guard commander, boasted that “our hands are always on the trigger and our missiles are ready for launch”.

Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, said she saw the launches as “evidence that the missile threat is not an imaginary one”, although the impact of the Iranian stunt was diminished on Thursday when it became clear that a photograph purporting to show the missiles being launched had been faked.

The one thing that all sides agree on is that any strike by either Iran or Israel would trigger a catastrophic round of retaliation that would rock global oil markets, send the price of petrol soaring and wreck the progress of the US military effort in Iraq.

Abdalla Salem El-Badri, secretary-general of Opec, the oil producers’ consortium, said last week that a military conflict involving Iran would see an “unlimited” rise in prices because any loss of Iranian production — or constriction of shipments through the Strait of Hormuz — could not be replaced. Iran is Opec’s second-largest producer after Saudi Arabia.

Equally worrying for Bush would be the impact on the US mission in Iraq, which after years of turmoil has seen gains from the military “surge” of the past few months, and on American operations in the wider region. A senior Iranian official said yesterday that Iran would destroy Israel and 32 American military bases in the Middle East in response to any attack.

Yet US officials acknowledge that no American president can afford to remain idle if Israel is threatened. How genuine the Iranian threat is was the subject of intense debate last week, with some analysts arguing that Iran might have a useable nuclear weapon by next spring and others convinced that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is engaged in a dangerous game of bluffing — mainly to impress a domestic Iranian audience that is struggling with economic setbacks and beginning to question his leadership.

Among the sceptics is Kenneth Katzman, a former CIA analyst and author of a book on the Revolutionary Guard. “I don’t subscribe to the view that Iran is in a position to inflict devastating damage on anyone,” said Katzman, who is best known for warning shortly before 9/11 that terrorists were planning to attack America.

“The Revolutionary Guards have always underperformed militarily,” he said. “Their equipment is quite inaccurate if not outright inoperable. Those missile launches were more like putting up a ‘beware of the dog’ sign. They want everyone to think that if you mess with them, you will get bitten.”

A former adviser to Rice noted that Ahmadinejad’s confrontational attitude had earned him powerful enemies among Iran’s religious leadership. Professor Shai Feldman, director of Middle East studies at Brandeis University, said the Iranian government was getting “clobbered” because of global economic strains. “His [Ahmadinejad's] failed policies have made Iran more vulnerable to sanctions and people close to the mullahs have decided he’s a liability,” he said.

In Israel, Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, has his own domestic problems with a corruption scandal that threatens to unseat him and the media have been rife with speculation that he might order an attack on Iran to distract attention from his difficulties. According to one of his closest friends, Olmert recently warned him that “in three months’ time it will be a different Middle East”.

Yet even the most hawkish officials acknowledge that Israel would face what would arguably be the most challenging military mission of its 60-year existence.

“No one here is talking about more than delaying the [nuclear] programme,” said the Pentagon source. He added that Israel would need to set back the Iranians by at least five years for an attack to be considered a success.

Even that may be beyond Israel’s competence if it has to act alone. Obvious targets would include Iran’s Isfahan plant, where uranium ore is converted into gas, the Natanz complex where this gas is used to enrich uranium in centrifuges and the plutonium-producing Arak heavy water plant. But Iran is known to have scattered other elements of its nuclear programme in underground facilities around the country. Neither US nor Israeli intelligence is certain that it knows where everything is.

“Maybe the Israelis could start off the attack and have us finish it off,” Katzman added. “And maybe that has been their intention all along. But in terms of the long-term military campaign that would be needed to permanently suppress Iran’s nuclear programme, only the US is perceived as having that capability right now.”

Additional reporting: Tony Allen-Mills in New York

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4322508.ece
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i must have been bit by a spider, when i was very small. because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going up the fucking wall. i must have been fenced-in to a long straight road when i was nine or ten because now i am grown up i spend five days a week going around the fucking bend...
bebopbalogna
Queen of Second Guessing
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i know what fucking "dharma" means.


« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2008, 08:08:00 AM »

think of it as a traffic light. red is "stop".  green is "go".  amber is "hurry up!"
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giminamee.
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