His Toolness, Sir Paul

[Tripp]

never underestimate the American people's capacity to vote against their own best interests.


Also, they stole the election.

[bebopbalogna]

I have ample proof that people can be stupid enough to vote against their interests, whereas I have no concrete proof that Dumbya and his croonies stole the election. 

are you now comparing the theft of the 2004 election to FRICKIN MOSES??!!    hoo boy.  now you've gone too far.


(the election was stolen)

[Doctor Rock]

It's like the issue of extra-terrestrial life: I have a feeling that there is life on other planets around distant stars.  But I have no proof.  I have a feeling that the election could have been stolen.  But I have no proof.  Statistical analysis are not proof, you can make those numbers say anything you want. 

[bebopbalogna]

skim through a few of these articles.  if you don't find "proof" you should at least find some convincing arguments. which constitutes "proof" in a (USian) court of law.

[matthew]

It's like the issue of extra-terrestrial life:

Or God or the Church. Time to revise your aggressive atheism.

[full blown possession]

speaking of tools, i was flippin thru the channels last night and watched a few minutes of his show, this guy and the girls on this show are tools
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/QheVbzgFw9g" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/QheVbzgFw9g</a>

[Doctor Rock]

It's like the issue of extra-terrestrial life:

Or God or the Church. Time to revise your aggressive atheism.

This is not like belief in god: I don't expect my lack of belief to be confirmed by physical evidence! However, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that, one day, we will find physical proof of extraterrestrial life.  I want these allegations about the 2004 election to be confirmed by unassailable evidence!  Like you, I have a feeling that there was fraud.  But a feeling is not proof. 


Besides, I would never say that I am sure there isn't a god.  I would say that I think there's a pretty good chance that there isn't a god.  I'm pretty sure, however, that miracles don't happen, that people don't come back from the dead, that prayers aren't answered, and so on. 

[matthew]

It was a joke.

I'll be back to clarify my view, but no one here is going to ever "know" much more beyond what we do know. Of just what leaked - caging lists, voter suppression, strategically placed State Secretaries of State promised plum appointments to block voters implementing fallacious voting "reform" laws, blocked investigations, rightest Dems used to silence dissent, more than a million rejected provisional ballots (three million votes rejected nation-wide), illegally destroyed records of State vote tallies , the corporate media "fixing" their data to match the results, the unprecedented widespread failure of exit polls (otherwise known for their exemplary precision) to match the result, the corporate media rushing (the day after) to quash any skepticism of the validity of the vote, etc.

Will we ever "know" ...no more than I "know" that Bush never believed his own rationale for the Invasion of Iraq. Hey, maybe he DID believe that Iraq was a legitimate threat and every aspect of the war has just been a great big, unfortunate error.

Even in the face of inconclusive data one always has a gut feeling, no matter how "irrational" that is. You admit to such a feeling, and your Advocacy for the Devil comes across rather like default obstinacy - you have not really argued beyond "we do not have a signed confession, so we cannot know absolutely". If you have any argument beyond that...I would gladly hear it - I haven't gotten "Kerry Won" tattoos or anything.

And why does it matter? Because I believe that the mechanisms learned will spread and I do believe that the theft could occur again later this year...because the press snuffed the story before it could move, declaring it the environs of the fringe conspiracy element.

And because our government follows orders from Washington.

[Doctor Rock]

I'll be back to clarify my view, but no one here is going to ever "know" much more beyond what we do know. Of just what leaked - caging lists, voter suppression, strategically placed State Secretaries of State promised plum appointments to block voters implementing fallacious voting "reform" laws, blocked investigations, rightest Dems used to silence dissent, more than a million rejected provisional ballots (three million votes rejected nation-wide), illegally destroyed records of State vote tallies , the corporate media "fixing" their data to match the results, the unprecedented widespread failure of exit polls (otherwise known for their exemplary precision) to match the result, the corporate media rushing (the day after) to quash any skepticism of the validity of the vote, etc.

What are you saying exactly?  See, I have no doubt that there were local irregularities.  In fact, considering the byzantine way the US conduct their elections, I'm willing to wager that there have been irregularities for a long time.  They probably weren't a problem before because the margins by which presidents got elected were much larger.  It is even possible that, in numerous occasions, the irregularities even favoured the democrats.  However, I don't think this is what you are referring to.  I think that, essentially, you are saying that these irregularities, this time, have been orchestrated from above.  You are proposing that a bunch of repugs got together and rigged the election.  In other words, you are proposing a conspiracy. 

 

Will we ever "know" ...no more than I "know" that Bush never believed his own rationale for the Invasion of Iraq. Hey, maybe he DID believe that Iraq was a legitimate threat and every aspect of the war has just been a great big, unfortunate error.

Or maybe he's just an incompetent buffoon.  I believe that it is possible to know things (why the quotation marks?).  If I didn't believe that it was possible to know things, I wouldn't be doing a Ph.D. in a scientific field.  I also have no problem with not knowing things. I do not know if there was a conspiracy to steal the election.  Which brings us to the next point... 

Even in the face of inconclusive data one always has a gut feeling, no matter how "irrational" that is. You admit to such a feeling, and your Advocacy for the Devil comes across rather like default obstinacy - you have not really argued beyond "we do not have a signed confession, so we cannot know absolutely". If you have any argument beyond that...I would gladly hear it - I haven't gotten "Kerry Won" tattoos or anything.

I have a gut feeling against the repugs simply because I think many of them are evil little twerps who wouldn't hesitate to do such a thing if they could get away with it.  But that's not evidence.  Gut feelings, hunches, instincts are things that can drive you to prove something, not evidence in themselves.  Many of my gut feelings have been wrong.  Also, I don't have to provide you with arguments for or against. I am not saying that the repugs didn't steal the election.  I am not saying that they did either.  I am saying that I don't know if they did or not.  None of the things you advanced managed to convince me.  And I'm on your side!  I have no difficulty imagining that the repugs stole the election!  If you can't convince me, how do you think less paranoid people are going to take it?

And why does it matter? Because I believe that the mechanisms learned will spread and I do believe that the theft could occur again later this year...because the press snuffed the story before it could move, declaring it the environs of the fringe conspiracy element.

Assuming that the election was stolen... How long do you think they can keep doing it without getting caught?  If the election was stolen, and they do it again this year, and in four years, it will become obvious.  We will know, just like everyone knows that the soviet elections were rigged, and that the recent Zimbabwean elections were rigged.  You can't organise something that requires hundreds or thousand of people, lots of money, and tons of organisation without making mistakes, or getting stuff leaked.  That's my major objection against most long ranging conspiracies: humans are weak and fallible. 

And because our government follows orders from Washington.

Oh come on, now you're being paranoid!  We have clear election rules, we use paper ballots, we have an independent Chief Electoral Officer, and our media, although shitty, is not yet totally blinded by partisan politics.   I'm not saying that it can't happen.  But we are quite a long way from getting there. 

[matthew]

I meant that out government more or less abides by the agenda set by Washington...there is nothing "paranoid" about that, I believe you have misread my meaning.

You know what, just forget it. I am only going to become angry and I really do not need this right now.

[Doctor Rock]

Matt, please, don't take it personal!  It is absolutely necessary to keep our cool when discussing these things.  I don't think you're stupid, or wrong or anything.  I'm just talking, you know?  Sorry if I misunderstood you.  Please keep in mind that I'm in good faith.  I'm your friend, damn it!